Porque praticar uma alta ingestão de proteínas

[Danilo Z 2734]

1 hora atrás, FMSR disse:

Para um natural, mais que 1,2gr de proteína é dinheiro jogado no lixo. Quem diz o contrario são vendedores de suplementos e afins para roubar o vosso dinheiro. Não compliquem o que é fácil!

Bom eu diria que mais do que 2 gramas d proteína por Kg de peso é exagero ( ainda mais pra natureba).

Já fiz uma dieta com 2~2,5 gramas de proteínas por Kg de peso , ganhei sim massa e força MAS ganhei MUITA GORDURA (mesmo diminuindo os carbos na medida que aumentava as proteínas) 

[FMSR 240]

8 minutos atrás, Shrödinger disse:

 

Vou colocar abaixo a resposta do Eric Helms a esse artigo do Menno Henselmans. Eric foi bastante moderado e cita diversos (muitos mesmo) estudos na réplica dele. Recomendo a leitura:

 

  Mostrar conteúdo oculto

Okay folks, first off let me point out that Menno Henselmans was kind enough to message me to ensure the accuracy of this blog post and to get my temperature on it before he posted ithttp://bayesianbodybuilding.com/eric-helms-protein/. A very respectful, honest thing to do. Much respect.

The only thing I wanted him to change in fact, was that originally he wrote that the research in question was part of my PhD when it was actually a part of my Masters. And of course he made this edit, so really I left the blog post untouched. Now that is not to say I agree with his interpretation. In fact, I disagree with his interpretation in a few important ways, both mechanistically and in terms of practical application. However, I believe his interpretation is a perfectly reasonable one to make even though I disagree. So, I am putting forth the following response to help those reading both of our thoughts come to their own conclusions on protein intake.

-As an important aside, I would please recommend everyone first read Menno's article on protein intake http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-p…/ and read the full text of my systematic review and double blind crossover trial http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Eric_Helmsso they understand the foundation of what is being discussed.

To start, Menno addresses my systematic review of protein intakes in lean dieting resistance trained populations. He starts by putting forth the fact that the efficiency of protein utilization increases as you decrease calories, which is true. This he states is the logical reason why protein needs don't increase in a deficit, and he states that it is illogical to state that protein needs increase in a deficit, and that in fact based on physiology they would decrease.

In my opinion, this is a simply missing the important point of "why" protein efficiency goes up when you reduce calories. Similar phenomenon occur in many ways in the body. The body increases efficiency in the face of a limited resource. In fact an increase in efficiency signals that there is a limited resource.

If you reduce calories, your energy expenditure decreases, becoming more "efficient" with the utilization of energy to prevent starvation. This doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit from eating more food, it means the body is trying to adapt to less food.

If you travel to a very high altitude, you get more efficient with oxygen extraction in an effort to keep you alive. This doesn't mean you don't feel the negative effects of reduced oxygen and that you wouldn't benefit from more oxygen, it means the body is trying to adapt to less oxygen.

An increase in efficiency signals the fact that there is a limited resource. So it is not illogical to posit that increasing protein in the face of a deficit would be a potentially lean mass sparing decision.

Protein breakdown increases in the face of a caloric deficit as more protein is used for energy. This is well establishedhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15173435. It is also well established that the leaner you are, the more protein you oxidize for energy since there is less available from body fathttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10574520. So while you can accurately state that protein efficiency increases in a deficit and be correct, it is also true that you are using more protein for fuel. This is not a one sided equation. If protein efficiency went up only, and you didn't use more protein, the net change would be an increase in protein balance and you wouldn't have a huge body of evidence showing lean mass losses while dieting, you'd have a huge body of evidence showing lean mass gains while dieting!

For these reasons, I think it is plainly incorrect to state that protein needs decrease when you diet. It is only accurate to state that protein efficiency increases when you diet.

Honestly, I think Menno would likely agree with that distinction. I think our true disagreement just comes down to how much protein is required to offset the increase in protein breakdown that occurs, and he would argue that 1.8g/kg is enough (and likely more than enough), while I tend to be more conservative and fall on the side of larger safety buffer.

What we also agree on, is the characterization of my literature review as a hypothesis rather than a definitive conclusion. I explained how a caloric deficit increases protein breakdown, how caloric deficits result in lean body mass losses that scale with the severity of energy restriction, and how the leaner you are the more protein is used for fuel. Then, I hypothesized that an effective strategy to offset this would be an increase in protein intake. Yes, a hypothesis.

A final note regarding my literature review, I want to give a huge kudos to Menno for actually doing some statistical analysis on the data that I presented. That really impressed me. I don't dispute his findings either. With only 6 studies to form my hypothesis it doesn't surprise me that the correlation is a) very weak between LBM and protein intake and non-significant. However, I am curious to see what occurs when Menno reanalyses this information based on grams per kilogram of lean body mass. I actually just provided him that data to run an analysis on. I doubt it will reach significance and show a strong correlation, but I am curious to see if the p value decreases and the inverse correlation increases as it might indicate that something is happening, even if there is not enough data yet to make any definitive, quantitative conclusion.

Now finally, Menno addresses my cross over study comparing 1.6g/kg of protein to 2.8g/kg of protein and acknowledges, like I do in the study, that there was no significant or meaningful differences found in strength, lean body mass or body fat change between the two diets. I think that 1.6g/kg is probably approaching an optimal intake of protein during a deficit, and even if it was a bit short of optimal, I doubt a 2 week period would be an adequate enough time period to show the difference. Additionally, I wasn't able to secure DEXA, hydrostatic weighing or ultrasound (despite my best efforts) as a method to measure lean mass or muscle mass changes. I only had access to high quality, skilled anthropometric measurements. This means skinfolds, and skinfold derived equations. Skinfolds measurements when taken by a skilled technician themselves (when not put into an equation) are a highly reliable and accurate way of measuring fat mass. But, LBM and body fat percentage derived from equations are not. So based on the time frame and the measurements available, I am truly not surprised that there was no difference in LBM (BTW, of course our lab got an ultrasound...6 months after I finished my masters!).

However, the study was not completely a waste! Interestingly enough both on the Profile of Mood States and the Daily Analysis of Life Demands for Athletes the participants reported better overall mood state, more diet satisfaction, and less fatigue consuming the higher protein diet.

Menno dismissed this finding saying the following:
"This study was confounded in a major way by using maltodextrin powder as the protein placebo. That meant the medium protein group was consuming 95 grams of pure sugar. When you’re in a 40% deficit and over 25% of your diet is sugar, it’s not surprising you’ll feel poorly. They were likely starving and the major difference in hunger alone could easily explain the difference in mood."

First off, I think Menno accidentally counted the entire calorie amount of the placebo powder, versus just the maltodextrin portion, as the powder also had 20g of protein in it. The 95g of maltodextrin is 380 calories, and 380 calories is 20.7% of the 1829.3 calories that the moderate protein group consumed not 25%...a minor difference though, so I think his point still stands.

However, I would put forth that his point (like my literature review) is just a hypothesis as to the reason the high protein group felt better. And I would argue, a much weaker hypothesis given that the research on how sugar effects hunger and mood is not as definitive as one might think.

In fact White and colleagues found improvements that only reached significance in a high sucrose diet group in the mental component of a quality of life assessment http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20095912. This finding is not solitary. Drummond observed subjects consuming a low fat, sugar containing diet who when compared to baseline, reported improvements in perceived quality of life, diet attitude and adherencehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15369982. Finally, the participants in Raben and colleagues’ highest sucrose group reported higher diet satisfaction and palatability compared to the other groupshttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9347402.

So the contention that the presence of a large amount of sugar in a diet would "easily explain the difference in mood" as Menno puts it is challenged by these controlled trials showing the opposite. In contrast, the hypothesis that a higher protein intake might result in better diet satisfaction and less hunger is one that stands on the top of a great deal of empirical evidencehttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23107521http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15867892http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18769212. However, as Menno might argue (and I would agree), the majority of this evidence compares low to high protein intakes without comparing a middle of the road intake, like this study http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16002798 which when analysed on a g/kg basis compares 1g/kg to 2g/kg.

However, recent research by Antonio comparing 1.8g/kg to 4.4g/kg found that a much larger number of participants dropped out of the 4.4g/kg group, and that bodyweight gain was much less than expected based on self-reported energy intake in the 4.4g/kg grouphttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24834017. In my opinion this indicates a satiating effect of protein that extends past the 1.8g/kg level and that the participants in the 4.4g/kg group didn't consume as many calories as they thought they did. A follow up study comparing 2.3g/kg to 3.4g/kg found more weight was gained in the 2.3g/kg group, while the 3.4g/kg group lost more fat, despite a larger self-reported energy intake. Again, I would put forth this likely shows a satiating effect of the higher protein intake and subsequent over reporting of caloric intake which would explain less weight gained, and fat lost in the 3.4g/kg group http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26500462. To conclude, while it is possible that the differential effects on mood found in the higher protein group in my study are due to the higher sugar intake in the lower protein group, I think it would be premature to conclude this based on the well-established satiating power of protein and the murkier role of sugar.

As a final note I want to emphasize the difference between what Menno and I prescribe with our interpretations of the research. Menno, is happy to use 1.8g/kg as the sole protein intake for all situations (all hail 1.8g/kg!) based on the data as he interprets it. I would agree that intakes over 1.8g/kg are rarely studied. But the absence of evidence on the effect of very high protein intakes (>1.8g/kg) compared to moderately high protein intakes (~1.8g/kg), is not the same as the evidence of absence of an effect of very high protein intakes compared to moderately high protein intakes.

Based on our conversations I know that Menno and I both agree that protein intakes above his recommendations (unless they force other macros too low) aren't harmful. We share this opinion with other much more well established researchers http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14971434 and we would also be in agreement with the vast majority of the research on resistance trained individuals showing that there has never been an incidence when a lower protein intake was found to have a statistically significant benefit over a higher intake: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php…

Now the reason I am not comfortable with simply advising 1.8g/kg to everyone (and the reason you will most often find ranges prescribed in the literature) is that there is plenty of individual variability in protein requirements evidenced by this study that found a cyclist requiring 2.8g/kg of protein to reach nitrogen balance compared to the mean requirement of 1.63g/kg http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24476478.

Additionally, I would rather err on the side of over prescribing protein versus under prescribing given the info graphic I linked above. Specifically, I would turn your attention to the 7 studies at the bottom of this infographic that found a benefit of a higher protein intake versus a lower one. 5 of these 7 compared protein intakes in the range of 1.4-2.2g/kg to intakes in the range of 2.4-3.2g/kg. Sure, you can find flaws in each study. But if you have to explain away five studies to maintain your position, perhaps you need to rethink how strongly you hold your position. We can't know for sure that the confounding variables in each of these studies fully explains their findings and that's enough to make me more comfortable prescribing 1.8g/kg as a minimum intake versus a solitary intake to ensure I cover the possibility of it being too little in some cases. For the record, I normally prescribe either 1.8-2.8g/kg of total body mass or 2-3g/kg of lean body mass for protein intake for recreational and competitive strength and physique athletes. Using the lower half for a caloric surplus/maintenance, and the upper half for a deficit.

As a closing note, I want to look to the future because in my opinion we need more research on this to truly make a definitive conclusion. Thus far, the only true controlled comparisons we have of one protein vs another in lifting populations using progressive resistance training while dieting are:

Walberg showing 1.6g/kg beating out 0.8g/kg in lean mass retention in bodybuilders over just a single weekhttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3182156

Mettler showing 2.3g/kg beating out 1.0g/kg in lean mass retention in trained lifters over a 2 week period http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19927027

Helms (me) showing 2.8g/kg beating out 1.6g/kg in mood state in trained lifters over a 2 week period with no difference in strength of body comphttp://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25028958

And a thesis you probably haven't seen by Longman showing 2.4g/kg beating out 1.2g/kg in lean mass retention in trained lifters over a 4 week period https://macsphere.mcmaster.ca/handle/11375/15355

We don't have enough data. We disagree because we are filling in gaps with our interpretations of what is available. Hopefully a meta-analysis or a better designed, longer RCT will come out that can give more evidence. I know Menno well enough that he would revise his thoughts on protein if convincing data was to emerge (in fact that is the essence of the Bayesian approach). I commit to do the same. Protein is expensive and won't be getting cheaper as our population increases, so as soon as I feel that I can responsibly tell lifters to eat less of it, I will. But as it stands, I know there is no harm erring on the higher side (if in fact that’s what I’m doing), and without stronger evidence to show a lack of potential harm of lower intakes, I can't commit to a lower prescription.

 

https://www.facebook.com/ericrhelms/posts/10156254344360441

 

Importante deixar claro que não há nada muito conclusivo que aponte pra uma vantagem inexorável de uma maior ingestão de proteínas sobre a recomendação padrão de 2g/kg. Entretanto, existem algumas pistas e hipóteses que apontam pra uma vantagem de um maior consumo. Como não há desvantagens, me parece razoável e preferível "errar" pro lado de mais proteína.

 

P.S.: Me parece que 1,2g/kg é subótimo em praticamente qualquer circunstância, apesar de ser um valor razoável quando em superávit calórico numa dieta high carb (carbos são anti-catabólicos e, por conseguinte, anabólicos) ou cetogênica (quando a necessidade de quebra de proteínas pra produzir glicose fica extremamente reduzida).

 

Abraços

 

Já experimentou ficar nas 1,2-1,5gr?

Já testou na pratica em seu corpo?

É que eu já e mais do que uma vez e contrario também, altas quantidades de proteína.

Alias a foto do perfil (devia ter uns 10% de bf) estava ingerindo não mais do que 1gr de proteína por dia, cerca de 2 refeições de 40gr de proteína por dia, totalizando 80gr. (1gr por kg) e sequei cerca de 5kg dessa forma. Não perdi quase massa muscular nenhuma, basta ver as minhas fotos la em fotos de usuários, tenho tudo registado.

Acho que vocês não deveriam falar sem terem experimentado na pratica e ver os resultados em vossos corpos.

[lucasf21 1673]

5 minutos atrás, FMSR disse:

 

Já experimentou ficar nas 1,2-1,5gr?

Já testou na pratica em seu corpo?

É que eu já e mais do que uma vez e contrario também, altas quantidades de proteína.

Alias a foto do perfil (devia ter uns 10% de bf) estava ingerindo não mais do que 1gr de proteína por dia, cerca de 2 refeições de 40gr de proteína por dia, totalizando 80gr. (1gr por kg) e sequei cerca de 5kg dessa forma. Não perdi quase massa muscular nenhuma, basta ver as minhas fotos la em fotos de usuários, tenho tudo registado.

Acho que vocês não deveriam falar sem terem experimentado na pratica e ver os resultados em vossos corpos.

vc generaliza geral.

fala que todos devem consumir 1,2 e vem falar de teste no proprio corpo

lol??

Acorda cara, eu acho 4g exagero, e acho 1,5g muito pouco. eu prefiro errar pra mais doq pra menos, carbo não vai me trazer beneficios a mais, a gordura tbm nao, a proteina eu vo ter aminoacidos a mais

 

[Lucas, o Schrödinger 12007]

21 minutos atrás, FMSR disse:

 

Já experimentou ficar nas 1,2-1,5gr?

Já testou na pratica em seu corpo?

É que eu já e mais do que uma vez e contrario também, altas quantidades de proteína.

Alias a foto do perfil (devia ter uns 10% de bf) estava ingerindo não mais do que 1gr de proteína por dia, cerca de 2 refeições de 40gr de proteína por dia, totalizando 80gr. (1gr por kg) e sequei cerca de 5kg dessa forma. Não perdi quase massa muscular nenhuma, basta ver as minhas fotos la em fotos de usuários, tenho tudo registado.

Acho que vocês não deveriam falar sem terem experimentado na pratica e ver os resultados em vossos corpos.

Eu acredito em vc. Falei ali que acho que é subótimo. 

 

No fim do post inicial eu incentivei as anedotas justamente pra conhecermos mais experiências com o assunto. Mas as anedotas, apesar de úteis, tem um problema: falta de controle do experimento individual (n=1). Em outras palavras, não tem significância estatística (ou seja, não pode ser ampliada pra população geral) e costuma não ter controle adequado. 

 

Além disso, temos que contextualizar mais. Déficit calórico, nível de controle, treino, entre outros, são informações importantes. 

 

A sua experiência acrescenta as outras que lemos por aqui. Somando tudo, anedotas, estudos, opinião de especialistas e experiência própria podemos chegar à melhores conclusões.

 

Abraços

[FMSR 240]

Estou sendo o mais sincero possível e falando aquilo que acredito que acontece em "atletas" naturais. Minha intenção é a de alertar vocês pois a industria de suplementos quer fazer acreditar que é preciso muita proteína, o que não é verdade.

A minha experiencia pessoal de alguns anos de musculação (treino de força, reps altas, baixas, calisténicos, etc) já testei diversas vezes no meu corpo e de amigos altas e baixas quantidades de proteína, já vi diversos relatos, muitas experiencias na pratica...e a conclusão que cheguei foi precisamente essa, não adianta ingerir acima de 1,2 (valor medio) pois não te vai trazer mais massa muscular ou força por isso. Outro exemplo que lembrei agora são os veganos/vegetarianos, consomem pouquissima proteína (e apenas vegetal) e não é por isso que deixam de crescer e ganhar força.

Vou deixar uns vídeos de um cara que as vezes acompanho e é apenas mais um exemplo daquilo que estou falando. Ele era um marombeiro de academia, mudou radicalmente suas ideias pelo treino e pela alimentação, virou vegan, mudou para calistenia e corpo/mente/saude mudou pra muito melhor. É um bom exemplo de um cara natural que assim como nos treina pra ganhar massa muscular/força, melhorar nossa saúde e bem estar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Editado Agosto 22, 2016 às 23:28 por FMSR

[pibols 558]

2 horas atrás, FMSR disse:

Para um natural, mais que 1,2gr de proteína é dinheiro jogado no lixo. Quem diz o contrario são vendedores de suplementos e afins para roubar o vosso dinheiro. Não compliquem o que é fácil!

Nao ve nenhuma vantagem em um numero maior q esse? Nao ve melhora na saciedade ao substituir carbo por proteina? Nao ve aumento no TEF e consequente diminiuçao calorica da dieta?Nao sentiu na pratica melhora na recuperaçao muscular? Nao viu melhora na composicao corporal ao fazer uma dieta reversa/consolidaçao comendo suas kcals de manutençao? JA FEZ UM CUTTING NATURAL COM 1,2G -KG E TEVE  BONS*** RESULTADOS? Ganhou massa muscular treinando com uma frequencia de 2x cada musculo e com um abc2x? eu vejo essas e mais imumeras vantagens em se adicionar proteina na dieta, nao tem pq meter 500-600g carbo e deixar 140g de proteina, as vezes pode ser interessante aumentar essa prot e reduzir o carbo im pouco. Creio que vc foi extremista demais quando usou a palavra 'nenhuma' seguida de 'vantagem'

[cormaya 271]

acho que tem muita coisa pra levar em consideração... principalmente o uso de esteroides, que é meio difícil porque estudo nenhum mede os níveis de T das cobaias.

 

sobre baixo consumo de proteína...

 

(Hoffman, 2006) n houve diferença em composição corporal em atletas de força consumindo 1.69g por kg ou 2g por kg por um período de 3 meses.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/258035299_Effects_of_protein_supplementation_on_muscular_performance_and_resting_hormonal_changes_in_college_football_players

 

 (Walber, 1988) 1.61g por kg foi o suficiente pra manter balanço nitrogenado positivo em cutting em atletas de força por um período de 7 dias. ''Walber, 1988''

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3182156

 

(Tarnopolsky, 1988) 0.80g por kg foi suficiente pra manter balanço nitrogenado positivo em bodybuilders com mais de 5 anos de treino, 0.99g por kg foi suficiente pra manter massa magra.

http://jap.physiology.org/content/64/1/187

 

(Lemon, 1998) n houve diferença em ganhos de força ou massa muscular em bodybuilders novatos consumindo1.3g por kg ou 2.62g por um período de 4 semanas.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1400008

Editado Agosto 23, 2016 às 00:29 por cormaya

[FMSR 240]

7 minutos atrás, pibols disse:

Nao ve nenhuma vantagem em um numero maior q esse? Nao ve melhora na saciedade ao substituir carbo por proteina? Nao ve aumento no TEF e consequente diminiuçao calorica da dieta?Nao sentiu na pratica melhora na recuperaçao muscular? Nao viu melhora na composicao corporal ao fazer uma dieta reversa/consolidaçao comendo suas kcals de manutençao? JA FEZ UM CUTTING NATURAL COM 1,2G -KG E TEVE  BONS*** RESULTADOS? Ganhou massa muscular treinando com uma frequencia de 2x cada musculo e com um abc2x? eu vejo essas e mais imumeras vantagens em se adicionar proteina na dieta, nao tem pq meter 500-600g carbo e deixar 140g de proteina, as vezes pode ser interessante aumentar essa prot e reduzir o carbo im pouco. Creio que vc foi extremista demais quando usou a palavra 'nenhuma' seguida de 'vantagem'

 

Não, não vejo vantagem absolutamente nenhuma em passar de 1,2gr se você procura hipertrofia/força ou mesmo perda de gordura. Perdi cerca de 5kgs de gordura corporal (talvez um pouco de musculo, mas mt pouco mesmo) quando desci ate 10% de bf (foto de perfil) e estava ingerindo cerca de 1gr por kg.

Treino em media 3 vezes o musculo por semana, em media, as vezes ate os 7 dias na semana, outras apenas 2 vezes, depende.

[pibols 558]

27 minutos atrás, FMSR disse:

 

Não, não vejo vantagem absolutamente nenhuma em passar de 1,2gr se você procura hipertrofia/força ou mesmo perda de gordura. Perdi cerca de 5kgs de gordura corporal (talvez um pouco de musculo, mas mt pouco mesmo) quando desci ate 10% de bf (foto de perfil) e estava ingerindo cerca de 1gr por kg.

Treino em media 3 vezes o musculo por semana, em media, as vezes ate os 7 dias na semana, outras apenas 2 vezes, depende.

Nao respondeu nenhuma das minhas perguntas especificamente, mas enfim, as nossas praricas remetem a conclusoes opostas

[Torf 11507]

Se aparecer um cara que fala que 1,2 é o ideal porque testou e esse foi o valor que ele encontrou. Aí vem outro e fala que testou 1,2 e näo foi bom e quando chegou a 2,5 é que teve bons resultados.

E aí, qual dos dois está certo? Resposta: os dois!

 

E qual estaria errado? O errado é aquele que por achar que se algo funcionou com ele, essa é a regra geral e vai funcionar com todo mundo.