Polêmica: Westside Não É Tão Bom Assim Para Raw Powerlifting

[AmericanHero]

THE BENCH SHIRT IS BEING PULLED OVER YOUR EYES

Lots of discussion happening all over about this article…

http://jtsstrength.com/articles/2013/03/25/why-speed-work-doesnt-work/

but lets be real, most of that discussion isn’t really about the contents of Mike Tuchscherer’s article, it is about Westside and Raw vs Gear.

Before I throw in a couple cents about that, my opinion on Mike’s article is that Mike is a great lifter, has had great success with a large number of athletes, is extremely thoughtful about his and other’s training and I highly value his opinion. With that being said, I have used submaximal work with great success, as have many other lifters and after reading this I will continue to. I think it is important to consider several factors when doing submaximal work for the development of speed and technique and how it relates to RPE. For those of you not familiar with RPE it is Rate of Perceived Exertion and is an important indicator that Mike uses extensively in his training. In his article Mike defines Speed Work as…

For now, let’s define speed work as anything under a 7 RPE. If you complete a set and you could have done 5 or more reps, it counts as speed work. If you’re doing doubles or triples with less than 75%, it probably counts. If you’re doing singles with less than 85%, it probably counts. If this is just a warm-up to your heavier work, then it probably doesn’t count as speed work.

I think this is an incomplete way of looking at it. Let’s take the idea of being able to do 5 more reps with a weight and that in some way negating some of the training effects. Here is a set of me squatting 550×11…

In this set I perform the first 4 reps in about 8 seconds total and the last 7 reps in about 24 seconds total. From an RPE standpoint this entire set would be qualified as a 9 or 10. If I would have just done the first 4 reps and stopped, only considering the fact that I could have performed 7 more reps, that set of 4 would be considered a 5 or 6 RPE, but that is an incomplete way of evaluating the work that I was doing. Could I have continued beyond 4 reps with the same force, bar speed, quality of technique? No I could not have, so factoring in difficulty of movement, bar speed and quality of technique, I would have considered that set of 4 a 9 RPE, because I maybe could have done 1 more rep with the same qualities across the board. I know that doing speed work in this fashion (65-85% of 1rm for multiple sets of 2-4 reps with short rest periods) had a great influence on bringing my squat from 800 to 905.

Now that we have got that out of the way, let’s talk about what people love to argue about, Westside and Raw vs Gear. People all over Facebook are up in arms about Mike’s article, partly because of the title and partly because of the contents but mostly because Louie Simmons says you have to do speed work and they think if Louie says it then it must be true. I like many others have read all the articles on Westside’s site and for a long time was a huge advocate of their style of training and then I found out what powerlifting gear is.

When I was 18, 19, 20 I remember reading Westside and EFS articles and seeing them talk about 1100 pound squats and 800 pound benches and being astounded. How could someone be so strong?! Simple, they can put on special equipment that helps them lift more weight. I understand that competing in gear presents a different challenge than raw lifting and recognize that there are very strong lifters that compete in gear, I have no interest in competing in gear and though I don’t understand what the attraction is to finding out how well someone and their special onesie can (likely above parallel) squat, I have no issue if that’s what people are into.

What I do take issue with though is geared numbers being promoted without qualification. Before I understood what a squat suit or bench shirt was and the performance increases that they can yield, back when I though Westside was the best side, I looked at the numbers they talked about in the article (like I’m sure TONS of other people do) and was amazed and thought that whatever they were doing must be the best thing ever. While Westside is far and away the most effective system for geared lifting, there is a reason that you don’t find the All-Time Raw records lists peppered with lifters who utilize this style of training and that reason is…THE CONJUGATE SYSTEM DONE IN THE MANNER POPULARIZED BY WESTSIDE BARBELL IS NOT THE OPTIMAL TRAINING SYSTEM FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF RAW STRENGTH.

O. M. G. Oh no he didn’t just say that! Yes I did. I believe that a conjugate or concurrent system can be used very effectively for raw strength development (I wrote about it here…http://www.jtsstrength.com/articles/2012/06/15/how-i-would-westside/) but what people understand through articles and videos to be Westside (box squats, bands/chains, Max Effort Method-rotated weekly, Dynamic Effort Method, etc) isn’t going to make raw world record holders. That is why you will not find ONE name on this list (http://www.powerliftingwatch.com/records/raw/world) that utilizes a strict Westside-style system in their training.

Here is a quote from Louie Simmons in the Canadian magazine Muscle Insider. In response to the question “What of the arguments between those who lift using support gear and those who do not?” Mr. Simmons responded “In my opinion people who don’t wear gear have no opinion. Lifters who break records with gear and then train without are always stronger.” Well I guess I should stop writing since my opinion is invalid according to THE Louie Simmons. I really don’t care if Louie thinks that all his lifters are stronger than me and all the other top raw lifters in the World, he is wrong but that is his opinion. Arguing raw vs gear and training styles is more frustrating that arguing about religion or politics, I have no energy for that.

My purpose in writing this post is that hopefully people who look at numbers being publicized by Westside or EliteFTS will take a pause and realize that while yes those athletes are very strong, that they aren’t squatting 1200 pounds or benching 900 and in this writer’s opinion are not as strong as the people at the top of raw lifting. Do not be misled into thinking that the strongest lifters in the World are all utilizing a single system of training, like I was once lead to believe, think critically about the training you are doing. Why are you utilizing a system that’s success has occurred in geared powerlifting, when you compete raw (or in strongman or MMA or football or Track & Field)?

Maybe I’m wrong, maybe since according to Louie Simmons geared lifters are ALWAYS stronger than non-geared lifters, someone will show up at the USPA Beast of the Bluegrass meet on May 18th and prove me wrong…

Um artigo aqui do Chad Wesley Smith. Saiu hoje, vi ainda agora, se alguém quiser traduzir aí fique a vontade. Achei bacana a discussão.

[hugo4]

Bacana mesmo, e concordo. Atleas equipados tem vantagem sobre os não equipados, por isso devem ter treinos diferentes.

No WSB(westside barbell, o treino que é referido), por exemplo, no supino. Eles só se preocupam com o último 1/2 do movimento. Por isso treinam bastante lockout, o equipamento dá uma ajuda no movimento desde, seguindo o exemplo do supino, o peito até ao "meio" do movimento.

[manel007]

/\ mas a solução no caso de um RAW não seria então trabalhar a saida ( já que costuma ser a maior dificuladade dele ) ? acho que o legal da WSB é a liberdade que ele dá na escolha das variaveis do treino, trabalho sobre fraquezas, etc...

[hugo4]

/\ mas a solução no caso de um RAW não seria então trabalhar a saida ( já que costuma ser a maior dificuladade dele ) ? acho que o legal da WSB é a liberdade que ele dá na escolha das variaveis do treino, trabalho sobre fraquezas, etc...

Na minha opinião sim, não sei se é o certo...

460kg deadlift RAW:

Pura força, nada de equipamento.

EDIT: Tem um link ali muito interessante, se tivesse paciência traduzia.

Editado Março 26, 2013 às 21:02 por hugo4

[Visitante]

O American já tinha comentado isso quando perguntou para o cara do chaos and pain.

Eu sinceramente não vejo isso.Basta o cara fazer exercícios que vão fortalecer a saída do movimento.E lá no WSB, treinam não somente powerlifters, mas atletas que procuram aumentar força(jogadores de futebol americano por exemplo).

___

Eu ainda não li o artigo por ser inglês e estar com um pouco de preguiça, mas ainda vou lê-lo e comentá-lo melhor.

abs

Bacana mesmo, e concordo. Atleas equipados tem vantagem sobre os não equipados, por isso devem ter treinos diferentes.

No WSB(westside barbell, o treino que é referido), por exemplo, no supino. Eles só se preocupam com o último 1/2 do movimento. Por isso treinam bastante lockout, o equipamento dá uma ajuda no movimento desde, seguindo o exemplo do supino, o peito até ao "meio" do movimento.

Cara, o WSB defende a troca de exercícios com frequência, não "importa" os exercícios escolhidos.Nõa possui uma estrutura fixa e existem vários exercícios para treinar a saída.

abs

[hugo4]

Cara, o WSB defende a troca de exercícios com frequência, não "importa" os exercícios escolhidos.Nõa possui uma estrutura fixa e existem vários exercícios para treinar a saída.

abs

Tens razão, mas mesmo assim acho que não é, no geral, direcionado para atletas raw.

abs

[Danilo Z]

Resumindo: ele diz q o método WSB não é o melhor método pra quem faz tudo RAW e mostra uma tabela onde vc não vê os nomes dos caras da Westside nos recordes RAW.

[mpcosta82]

Ele falou, falou e falou sobre como o WSB não é ideal para atletas que competem RAW..... e não apresentou um único argumento de como treinar melhor (pelo menos eu não vi). Aí é fácil, criticar por criticar qualquer um faz.

[Visitante]

Tens razão, mas mesmo assim acho que não é, no geral, direcionado para atletas raw.

abs

Mas pensa bem cara, no que você vai melhor seu GPP, seu condicionamento físico geral, se treinar apenas o lockout?

Se o treino também foi criado para atletas em geral, então não faria sentido se fosse bom só para equipados.

abs

Ele falou, falou e falou sobre como o WSB não é ideal para atletas que competem RAW..... e não apresentou um único argumento de como treinar melhor (pelo menos eu não vi). Aí é fácil, criticar por criticar qualquer um faz.

rsrsrs

Imaginava isso, por isso nem me preocupei em ler.

abs

[Danilo Z]

Ele falou, falou e falou sobre como o WSB não é ideal para atletas que competem RAW..... e não apresentou um único argumento de como treinar melhor (pelo menos eu não vi). Aí é fácil, criticar por criticar qualquer um faz.

Essa foi a parte q me deixou puto,achei q no final ele ia explicar as melhores maneiras de se treinar pra força quando se compete RAW, mas ele só criticou e mais nada.